Your Shadow Advisor

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Thanks
again for listening into Your

Shadow Advisor, a weekly program
about navigating higher

education from a first
generation person of color

perspective. I'm your host
Professor Darrel Wanzer-Serrano.

Y'all. I'm really excited to be
doing this recording this week

because this is my first guest
interview for the show. And it's

a big one because I have two
guests virtually with me to talk

about mentorship today.

Shantel Martinez is the director
of first generation programs and

enrichment for the University of
Colorado Boulder. She has a PhD

in communication and media with
an emphasis in index

communication and Gender Studies
from the University of Illinois

Urbana Champaign. As a
practitioner scholar, she sent

her storytelling and narrative
practices to examine cycles of

intergenerational trauma and
survival in both familial and

educational spaces to utilize as
this research to inform her

approach to build mentorship
pipelines, form community and

cultivate narratives of
survival. Thank you so much for

being here.

Shantel Martinez: Thank you so
much for having me. I really

appreciate it.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Also
joining us is Bryant Taylor,

who's from the Bay Area
California, and it's currently a

PhD student at the University of
Oregon in their inaugural

indigenous race and ethnic
studies program. His research

interests include black queer
homemaking, oral histories,

archives, and queer video game
spaces. Thanks so much for

joining me, Bryant.

Bryant Taylor: Yeah, thank you
so much for having me super

excited to be here.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: So
Shantel, and I go way back. And

I always cherish the opportunity
to share space with her even if

only virtual. And Brian, I'm
meeting for the first time

today. But I'm excited to talk
about your perspectives and

experiences on mentorship,
something that the two of you

have mutual experience in and
have even crafted a forthcoming

essay about. So thank you so
much for joining me today to

talk about this stuff. And and
talk about other things related

to the themes of this podcast.

Shantel Martinez: Yes, thank you
so much.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: So, you
know, I want to start today with

a question that, that I've that
I've just kind of personally

enjoyed for a long time. When I
when I had a previous podcast,

anytime we had a guest anytime
we ran a roundtable at a

conference, I'd always lead off
with a version of this question.

And it's one that I've kind of
that I kind of used in my first

episode for this program, as
well. And that's a question

that, that I kind of
conceptualize and frame around

superheroes for some reason.

The broadest version of the
question is, what is your

superhero origin story? Right?
How do you get? How did you get

started on your path in higher
education, to go to grad school

to enter professional life, etc?
And what motivated you and what

enabled your movement into and
through these spaces? So where

do you come from? How did you
get to where you are?

Shantel Martinez: Bryant, do you
want to go first? Or do you want

me to take it?

Bryant Taylor: Oh, yeah, I can
go first. So my superhero origin

story starts in Oakland,
California, where I'm from a the

bay. And yeah, I graduated high
school. And I decided that from

high school, I would go to
community college one because

money in financial stress is
very, very real. I wasn't, I was

also not like, the greatest
student at the time. So it just

gave me an opportunity to figure
things out. But I think it kind

of laid the foundation for me to
figure out like, what mentorship

looks like how to ask for
resources, how to navigate

college without necessarily
having so many people crowding

me at like a large university.
So it was a very, very fun

experience. From there, I
transferred to California State

University Monterey Bay, where I
met with the wonderful Shantel

Martinez. And then yeah, after
that, did my two years there and

then I moved to University of
Oregon, where I've been happy

ever since.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: I don't
know if you know this. I'm also

from the Pacific Northwest. I
grew up in western Washington

state. So I'm familiar with
Oregon, and went to went to

Eugene, at least once a year for
every year I was in college for

debate tournaments.

Bryant Taylor: Really was what
was Eugene like, then because I

can tell you what it's like now.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Eugene
was a town full of free spirited

people doing free spirited
things on the quad. And this was

this was like the mid 90s. And
so it was kind of the the rise

of craft breweries and stuff.
And so there was like, a lot of

good beer and other things.
Yeah, it's definitely it's

definitely the same I would say
a lot of experience.

Bryant Taylor: You know, Eugene,
Eugene, it's gonna it's gonna be

what it is. But yeah,
definitely, definitely similar

vibes.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Shantel,
what about you?

Shantel Martinez: So it's
really. A funny, my, my

superhero story actually starts
with Indiana Jones. So I am a

child of the 80s, who pretty
much grew up on MTV and all the

movies, all the 80s movies that
your little heart could desire.

But growing up first generation,
low income, the TV was also kind

of part of my of being a
babysitter for me and my family.

And I remember watching Indiana
Jones and really loving the

adventures he went on, and that
he was this professor, and that

he was, you know, creating this
new knowledge and all of that.

And so all of a sudden, I wanted
to be a professor at age five, I

was like, I'm going to be
Professor too. So I used to get

all my stuffed animals, and
pretend to give them tests. And

mind you, I was also the oldest
of my siblings, and the oldest

of my cousins. So I spent a lot
of time kind of having to figure

it out myself and to entertain
myself. And so I used to give

them tests, and then I would
grade them. And then I would

sign my name, Dr. Shantel
Martinez, or Shantel Martinez,

PhD, and my family again, you
know, not having no access to

college was just like, What is
this? How does she know what a

PhD is? Again, hashtag Thank
you, Indiana Jones. But they

just kind of thought it was it
was a phase, right. But I knew

from a really young age, I just
had this drive and love for

lifelong learning and for
knowledge production. And so I

also say that I come from the
land of contradictions, because

I come from both the Palm
Springs area, which is the land

of deserts and California, but
also to the Pacific Northwest

connection, I did the majority
of all my schooling in the

Seattle area. And so I would do
school years with my mom in the

Pacific Northwest, and then
summers, with my dad in Palm

Springs. So I also took around,
I kind of got the worst of both

worlds, where it was always
raining, like nine months in and

then really, really hot during
the summer. But you know, from

there, I was really fortunate to
have a family that was really

supportive of education and to
going to college. And so I ended

up going to the University of
Washington Go Huskies, I still

believe purple and gold. And it
was there that I really got to

know the importance of
mentorship, especially at such a

large, you know, PWI where, you
know, you feel like you're a

face and a sea of faces. And
simultaneously, you also feel

hyper visible because you are a
person of color. And I remember

really being taken in by the new
trio, Sss support, McNair, and

other faculty members of color
who really, you know, uplifted

me in my experiences, and then
really helped showcase like the

way in which to get to grad
school because again, I knew I

wanted to get that PhD. And so I
ended up going to the University

of Illinois, Urbana Champaign.
First thing here was to get my

PhD in education, and the good
old 2008 Slash 2009 recession

hit. And the program that I went
into, ended up facing major,

major budget cuts and
restructuring where they

basically collapsed five
programs into one. And almost

every single person that I went
to go work with left. And you

know, being first generation, no
one told me that this could

happen that this was the thing
that your mentors could leave,

your advisors could leave, you
know, no one, no one told me

that they were just like, oh,
just go to grad school, then

you'll get your PhD and you'll
be fine. And so I had a lot of

soul searching and a lot of
learning from mistakes in grad

school. And I'm really, really
vulnerable and really, really

open about these experiences
with like Bryant or other

students that I mentor, because
I think that especially being

first generation, you know, yes,
there's things that we just

don't know. But there's also
things that I'm like, Just an

FYI, this actually can happen.
And it does happen more often

than you think. And I think it
goes back to, you know, the

whole purpose of this podcast of
highlighting, again, that shadow

advisor, or the, you know,
hidden curriculum, or the

stories that are sometimes
stole, you know, told underneath

our breath, but are not
necessarily public. And I think

that again, I really, truly
value this invitation to be on

this podcast with you to talk
about these issues, especially

from this first generation
perspective. So yes, hashtag

Indiana Jones and the Pacific
Northwest

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Ah god, I
loved Indiana Jones as a kid

too. I you know, it's funny.
It's funny that Indiana Jones

got us started from an early age
wanting to be a professor. I

knew early that I wanted to go
to college and be the first in

my in my family to do so. And I
knew from a pretty early age

that I wanted to be a teacher.
But you know, for me it was it

was probably like being a middle
school teacher or being a high

school teacher because that's
who had the kind of, you know,

in middle school it was it was
Mark Vetter in social studies,

Social Studies seminar, who like
gave me that passion for

learning right and really kind
of like took took us seriously

as students and got me motivated
and wanting to be really wanting

to be a teacher. I didn't really
even think about college, about

being a university professor and
going to graduate school and

stuff like that until until much
later. Right? But love to hear

those Indiana Jones I'm sure
like punching Nazis also is

like, you know, part of that
motivation, right?

Shantel Martinez: Of course
always.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: So, you
know, speaking of that

transition into graduate school,
right and going and going into

graduate school, and I'm
wondering for, for for the both

of you, each of you
independently. How prepared Do

you think you were to start
graduate school? Like, how much

access Do you think you had to
what some folks call the hidden

curriculum that underwrites grad
school success?

Yeah, like, what was that? What
was that transition period like

for you? Because like, Shantel,
you mentioned that you had

people like pathways and people
encouraging you to go to

graduate school. We didn't
really like, I don't remember

that being a real part of my
undergraduate experience. I

mean, how I, I like, I only
applied to the place, I ended up

going to graduate school,
because I like happen to find

the application that I printed
out and like, left on the floor

in my apartment, while I was
cleaning, close to the end of

the semester procrastinating
doing my work, right. I'm like,

oh, I should apply for this. Oh,
I have to take the GRE. Oh, that

deadline is coming up soon.
Because this is 1998, I guess.

And there, you know, it wasn't
all online back then. Anyway, so

the there are a lot of like,
accidents that that got me to

the point of actually being able
to apply to the place that I

ended up going to, and how I got
in, I still don't fully

understand because like, I
wasn't the best test taker, my

GPA was mouquet. Right? It
wasn't the best GPA? And I'm

glad I did. But so like, how
prepared Do you think you were

to succeed once you were there?
And to get into the first place?

Shantel Martinez: Yeah. I
really, really love this

question. Because I think you're
absolutely right about all those

happy little accidents that
happen. So one happy accident

that happened was, you know, my
very first year at the

University of Washington, I
never lived in the residence

halls, I was always a commuter
student, I actually always lived

with family or had my own
apartment. And I remember that

first year again, the advice
given to me by my parents was go

to school and go to work and do
both do good at both right? It

was never about getting involved
in clubs, or doing undergraduate

research or internships or study
abroad, it was basically go to

work and go to school. And
that's, that's what colleges

that's how you'll be successful.
And that's pretty much what I

did my first year. And I
remember, I was a trio student,

because again, first generation
low income. And I remember being

late for a trio appointment with
my advisor during the summer.

And so I was running through
Schmitz Hall because I couldn't

find parking on the Ave. And you
know, I was running up and I was

turning the hallway. And I
physically ran into this man,

and ended up being Dr. Steve
Woodard, who is one of my

lifelong mentors to this day.
I've known him now, half my

life. And he was like, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do

you Where are you going? Why are
you in such a rush? And I was

just like, I'm really sorry. I
ran, I'm late to an appointment

with my advisor. And he was
like, Well, what are you talking

about? And I was just like, I'm
trying to kind of map out what

my undergrad experience is going
to be like, I'm interested in

going to grad school, but I have
no idea what to do or how to get

there. And he was just like,
Well, my office is on the third

floor, come and visit me when
you're done. And I was like,

okay, and I had no idea who this
guy was, was the first time I'd

ever met him. And I remember
meeting with my advisor who kind

of gave me some help, kind of
didn't, but I was like, You know

what, I'm gonna just follow up
with this guy. Let's just see.

Well, lo and behold, he was the
director of the McNair program.

And again, this was that
critical summer between your

freshman year and your sophomore
year. And to apply for McNair

you have to apply as a
sophomore. And, you know, he sat

me down, and we had a really
long authentic conversation. And

again, he was first generation
himself. And he was just like,

I'm going to keep an eye on you.
And we're going to start working

together. And I, I felt so
relieved that someone was

interested in me and someone was
invested in me. And from there,

it really bridged into a
beautiful mentorship

relationship, and again, how I
really learned what to what a

good mentor was like. And so I
was involved. In McNair, I was

involved in the Honors Program.
I was involved in undergraduate

research again, all mostly
through his his mentorship. And

so when it came to grad school
and applying to grad school, I

actually felt really, really
prepared because I had the

support systems there. But and
this is the big but when I went

to grad school, I felt again,
intellectually prepared for grad

school. I actually didn't feel
emotionally prepared for grad

school, no one told me about the
hyper, hyper competition amongst

graduate students, including
graduate students of color. No

one told me that it was expected
that you constantly are driving

your own discussion, which
again, I came from a family that

was, you know, don't speak back
to your elders, you know, you

don't constantly critique you,
you listen, and you sit, and you

stay silent and you ponder. Um,
so there was a lot of cultural

elements that I was like, I'm,
I'm really not used to this.

It's not how I was raised. And
then just also this notion of

the performance of grad student,
which I talk and joke around

with Brian all the time, where
it's that trying to, you know,

kind of do that peacock dance,
where you're ruffling your

feathers to show to the faculty,
like, I know what I'm doing, and

you're speaking in academia, and
then other people are just

sitting there, and we're like,
did we read the same thing?

Like, are you sure we read the
same thing. And then also, to

really finding my voice as an
academic, like, I felt like grad

school, really, in some sense,
you know, stripped away my

writing and who I was as a
person, and how I embodied my

research, in order to fit the
cast in the mold that they

wanted me to be there was a lot
of acculturation, and a lot of,

again, that hidden curriculum
norms that I didn't know, oh,

yeah, anytime a faculty member
throws a party, you should be

there. Because that is, you
know, part of your

professionalization. I didn't
know that. And oftentimes, I

also had to have a side job when
I was in grad school. So I'd be

like, sometimes I can't make
these because I actually have to

work and people be like, what?
So I think that there was also

just some, like class tension,
some cultural tensions, and very

much that hidden curriculum that
I wasn't used to, and again,

even though I had phenomenal
mentorship and support systems,

and intellectually, I could go
jab for jab. But that emotional

part of grad school really
chipped away a lot of the

confidence that I had built in
undergrad. And I think also too,

this is my last point that I'll
say is that in grad school, I

really started to learn the
difference between mentorship

and advising. Because not all
advisors are your mentors.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Bryant, you're

nodding along a lot.

Bryant Taylor: Oh, my gosh, yes.
I'm having even though I'm still

in my first year of grad school,
I'm having like, so many

flashbacks being like, yeah,
like, the emotional intensity of

entering the program for the
very first time. It's just so,

so hard. And I think what's
really kind of interesting about

that, too, is that Chantel
shared all those stories with me

before so I kind of had like a
grappling of like what to

expect. But dang, when you're in
it, you're just like, okay, how

am I going to navigate my own
personal story and emotions, as

a graduate student dealing with,
again, the competitiveness and

trying to understand a new
academic language, I think

Chantelle calls it I could,
academia is right, like, when

you professors are just
constantly, you know, using all

these different words that
you've never heard of before,

but then they're expecting you
to know it, and like, say it

back to them, like, ah, let's I
don't know what I'm doing here.

But I guess in terms of how
prepared I felt, starting, I

felt really prepared, honestly.
You know, even though coming

from community college and being
a transfer student, I was also a

McNair Scholar. I also almost
missed the deadline, because I

was a spring term transfer. And
the program starts in the fall.

So I had to do like a summer
researchship with them. And then

they were like, Oh, we really
like you will reopen

application. And so the day and
so I was able to become a

premier scholar later on the
process, which is something that

they don't tell transfer
students that they should

probably should do that. So I
guess going through the McNair

program and having you know, to
do research, having the

mentorship with Dr. Shantel
Martinez really kind of

benefited me, I'm in a lot of
ways not necessarily just in

terms of like the research
aspect, but again, handling like

the hidden curriculum of
graduate school. And kind of

knowing the things beforehand,
so that way you can at least

kind of prepare yourself going
in. But yeah, it's definitely

like it can still be hard even
though you have the knowledge

because I think it hits everyone
differently. And to you also

have your own personal
challenges that you're going

through while in grad school. So
for my first year, the very

first week I was like sick for
like three weeks can go to the

bed like was missing classes.
And then once I recovered, I

tore my Achilles playing tennis,
trying to be impressive for my

club team. And so that knocked
me out pretty much for I want to

say a solid four months of just
trying to do like the physical

therapy missing classes but also
you know, having to do zoom

school having to grade my
students work having to still

read 500 pages a week still
having to you know, take my

midterms and finals and do all
these other things that you know

people Will don't really, I
guess can't really prep you for

life happening to you.
Especially so soon. I definitely

wasn't expecting that to happen,
but it did. Yeah. And I think to

kind of throw it back to
something else that Chantal

mentioned, was just like the, I
guess the lack of family

knowledge about college and
university stuff, because I

think while I was able to
prepare pretty well, during the

second half of my, my, I guess,
undergrad experience, the first

half was pretty much what
Chantal was saying, just about,

you know, go to school go to
work, that was pretty much the

message for my parents, if
you're not working, you better

be doing really well in school.
And so you kind of just kind of

get into that mindset of like,
okay, well, that's pretty much

all that colleges, that's what
you do, right? You just go to

school, you go to work, and then
everything else will kind of

fall in line. But there's a lot
of other stuff, right? You have

to get the internship, you have
to get the the internship

experience, you have to jump
through all these different

hoops to kind of show like, oh,
yeah, I was building something

while I was here. And so that
can be pretty, pretty

exhausting. If you don't kind of
go in knowing what you're going

to do, but when it's when you
kind of make the game plan, it

can be really, really fun.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Yeah, I
mean, no one really, no one ever

told me right? How much of a, I
guess, life choice graduate

school is right? And life
change. It is right? Like, both

you mentioning like the you
know, go to class, do your work,

work at your job, and you just
kind of like go through and do

that as an undergraduate. And
then grad school is like this,

you know, it's like, oh, I only
have three classes. And yeah,

they're harder. But it's only
three classes as opposed to, you

know, whatever you're used to as
a as a as an undergrad. But

like, it's like, all
encompassing, right. And no one

ever really tells you that ahead
of time. You know, Shantel, you

mentioned, like, going to prefer
to go into part, you know, tough

social events, right? That
seemed like it's just something

that's optional, but really
isn't like, isn't fully

optional. Well, so like, how did
you all figure some of that out?

Like, what kinds of resources
right did you find at the time?

So I'm asking you to think back
here. And, Brian, you're

thinking about a year? Shantel
you're thinking back more than a

year? But what kinds of
resources did you find at the

time to help you find your way?
Like, what, what things work

best? And why?

Shantel Martinez: I think that's
a really good question. And also

really quick to go back to what
you were just saying, I think it

is really important to stress
that now to grad students. And,

and this is why I stress to
Brian and the other students

that I mentor is that when
you're going to grad school,

you're again, you're not just a
student, you know, you are also

a human being and a person who
have those personal

developments, whether that means
you're, you're getting married,

you're getting divorced, you're
having children, you know, I

know so many of my friends and
cohort members who went through

that and including myself, like,
in grad school, I got married

and bought my first house, you
know, and so I always tell my

students first and foremost,
like remember, yes, you're a

grad student, and you're also a
human being that has many, many

wants and needs and desires that
exists beyond the Academy. And

that's okay, you need to be able
to fulfill those. So that's just

one thing I wanted to mention
really quickly. But to be

absolutely honest, and really,
really vulnerable.I kind of go

back to in, you're probably
going to have to bleep this out.

Darrel, I will fully I'm giving
you the the warning.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: I've got
my bleeper button ready.

Shantel Martinez: There you go.
I, I go back to my mother's

very, very wise words, which is
f*** around and figure it out.

So but that was really it. I you
know, being a first generation

college student, when I noticed
my peers. First there really

wasn't that many of us, you
know, there really wasn't that

many of us, you know, whether it
was BIPOC, or first generation

students in the room to begin
with, like I had cohort members

and classmates who were the
children or professors who were

reading Foucault at age 18. And
I was like, what? How was this

even possible, you know, and
they already knew the importance

of going to faculty parties,
because they were raised in that

culture, but but I wasn't. So it
really was honestly, making

mistakes of of, you know, again,
finding my own way. I used to

joke around that it was like
walking a path at night, in the

thick forest at midnight, where
there it's not a full moon. It's

a new moon and literally trying
to find your way through this

path and you are stumbling
because you can't see the tree

roots that are in front of you.
And so you have to pick yourself

back up and just continue and
have faith of I'm still moving

forward on this pathway, even if
I don't necessarily see it. And

that's really how I felt in grad
school. I felt like I learned a

lot of less And from fellow
peers, from students who were

more advanced in my program, you
know, I would ask them like, can

I see a copy of your Qualls? Can
I see a copy of your proposal.

And I really learned again to
kind of pay it forward and to

share those resources. So now
with my students, we have a Team

Drive together, where I put
copies of some of my old

graduate student papers, I put
copies of my personal statements

from both my masters and PhD
program in there. So again, they

have something to see and model.
Because for me, again, I

couldn't rely on a family
member. And I also didn't

necessarily know fully the
resources that were available to

me, I didn't know that you could
go to the Career Center, because

again, as a grad student,
especially a doctoral student,

it's really looked down upon if
you're accessing the Career

Center, because you should be
utilizing the resources in your

department. But I kept going
back to my mom's words, which

is, you know, you can't put all
your eggs in one basket, you

need to be able to have options
at the end of this. And so, I

know, I got weird looks. And I
know, I definitely got people

being like, why is she going to
the Career Center and other

places for resources. But I also
use my first Genesis in some

sense as that strength because
when I did graduate, I had

options to either pursue a
career in academic publications

on the tenure track market, as
well as administration. And so

I'm really thankful that I get I
listened to that advice of don't

put all your eggs in one basket,
and to kind of go around and

figure it out. Because I
definitely did that. Even if I

made mistakes along the way.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Byrant?

Bryant Taylor: I think for me,
very first therapy was the

biggest resource ever,
definitely had to utilize you

OHS mental health resources just
because it does get really,

really hard here. Being at a
predominantly white institution,

being queer. in Eugene, both of
those things intersecting being

a first gen student as well just
feels it can be very, very

lonely and trying to navigate
this space can be very, very

difficult. I think also having
to rely on peer support. At

CSUB, I was a transfer student,
peer mentor, so I really like

peer to peer connections. And so
when I tore my Achilles, I

actually got an undergraduate
peer mentor to like, help me

keep me on track because I was
just like, I'm just about to

quit, I was just like, you know,
this isn't, for me, I'm injured,

I'm tired. I'm in pain, like,
you know, having that peer to

peer support felt really, really
good, I think, especially to

having an outside of my
department, because, again,

we're inaugural so we're very,
very small. But I think being

able to kind of access and speak
to someone about you know, what

grad school is, like, even
though they were undergrad, just

be able to vent to someone else
was very, very good. And of

course, I think something else
that was really, really helpful

was being able to play tennis,
for, for the very short time

that I had it within my first
quarter. And then of course,

later on when I was able to
recover, because I think having

that physical outlet and
something that I was able to

play since I was a little kid
was able to take me out of the

grad school environment and out
of the like, you know, strict

you have to do you have to read
this, you have to write this you

have to read this and write this
and grade this and talk to your

professors about this, it really
kind of reconnected me back into

my body, when all the time
you're supposed to be in your

head and you're supposed to
privilege kind of your your

thoughts 100% of the time. And
of course, always going back to

Chantal and being like, I'm
gonna quit, I'm so tired. I hate

it here. was a really helpful
resource to lean on. Because I

think, you know, Chantal
mentioned, you know, having so

many options, and I think that's
a really good point. Because as

grad students, we're so we're
told to focus so much on just,

you know, finishing getting your
PhD, whatever. But no one really

talks to us about the different
options that can come after, or

the different options that can
occur while you're in your

program. And so, it's really
important to kind of see, you

know, your five plus years,
holistically instead of just

being this one lane, because
otherwise you can easily go

insane. Focusing on just the
one.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Yeah,
yeah. You know, in terms of like

thinking about those options. I
mean, that's something that

Chantel and I've talked about
privately, you know, I don't

know how much this is, this is
the case in your program, Brian,

but when I was a graduate
student, first of all got the

big life of the mind speech
which sounds like it's still a a

common speech from from Grad
directors and whatnot, right?

And so right the emphasis was
always on right cultivating this

quote unquote, life of the mind.
And producing producing students

who would go on to to be
professors at research one

institutions now. Now
thankfully, I think the

realities of you know, gesturing
wildly around me the world have

have made people realize in 2022
that like, not everyone will get

a research one job because they
just don't exist as much

anymore. Right. And so I think
there's, there is a lot more

diversification of, of kind of
career paths. But there's still

such a strong emphasis on people
joining the professorial, in one

way or another, right. And so,
you know, one of the things

that, that that, that I hope
starts to continues happening

more and more is people
realizing, and, and encouraging,

right folks to look at many
different potential pathways

with their PhD, right, that you
don't have to become a

professor, and that there are a
lot of like, Great fulfilling

important career paths, right,
that make an excellent use of a

PhD. But like, I also feel like
that still, that realization

still lags in a lot of advisors.
Right, but maybe less so in

mentors?

Shantel Martinez: Yes, I would,
I would agree, I think that's

actually one of the reasons the
differences between advising and

mentorship. Because I think
that, in my personal opinion,

when you're advising, you almost
get like a slice, like a slice

of the pie or a snapshot of that
person, like you're advising

them specifically on a project,
or you're advising them on how

to finish your dissertation, or
you're advising them through a

program. But I think mentorship
in my personal opinion, it's

about mentoring the whole
person, all of them, their

stories, their community, their
family, you know, the ties that

ground them, right, it's the
entire person, all of their

experiences, including the
experiences of trauma that you

are mentoring them with. And I
also think that mentorship, just

kind of similar to what Brian
just said, is, it's not a top

down situation, it is a side to
side, like we're walking this

path together. And that's to me,
I think one of like I said, in

my personal opinions, some of
the differences between advising

and mentorship, because I think
mentorship, it can and I tried

to do this with my students
really open up paths, and space

for empathy and vulnerability on
both for both people. And I

think that's one of the beauties
and strengths of mentorship,

rather than advising, which
sometimes can feel

transactional.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Yeah. And
sometimes it has to be right. I

mean, speak, putting on my
advisor hat for a second. I

mean, there's, there are like,
like, we have in our program,

one of the things that I really
appreciate about our graduate

program at Texas a&m, insert
advertisement for graduate

program at Texas a&m, is that we
do have like, we have clear

benchmarks, right, that people
are supposed to meet along the

way. And that puts kind of like,
I mean, it's in our grad

handbook. Right. And so when you
enter, you know, what the

expectations are kind of as you
move through the program, and

how you move through the program
in good standing and is, you

know, yeah, there's some
fuzziness with some of that

stuff, right? I mean, and their
ideals, but like, you know, part

of my job as an advisor is to
help keep you focused on those

benchmarks. It is it's, it's
almost definitionally

transactional, to the benefit of
the student to write of like,

okay, you know, what, what can I
do to help you, right, be sure

that you're doing this, this,
okay, I can give you this

information, I can point you in
this direction, I can listen to

you to what to, you know, to
your questions about X, Y, and

Z, and it's all kind of laid
out. Yeah, mentorship is, is a

bit is a bit of a different a
different beast. Brian, what

about what about you? What do
you think is, are some of the

similarities and differences
between advisors and mentors?

Bryant Taylor: You know, I think
that's a good question. And I'm

trying to think because I only
have one advisor right now, but

I feel like our, our
relationship is actually kind of

gearing more into a mentorship
role. At the moment, just

because I feel like there is
that openness and willingness to

kind of communicate and I feel
like there's groundwork being

laid that feels that feels I
guess, less transactional and

more collaborative. So I'm not
necessarily sure the differences

yet but maybe when I like start
building my own committee and my

you know, my things like that
all I'll be able to tell the

difference. But I think, I don't
know I feel like maybe maybe I'm

being a little naive, but I
think that hopefully I can kind

of you know, cultivate
relationships like that, that

feel kind of mentorship be with
all of my future committee

members. Or advisors just
because I feel like you know, it

feels it feels Good, you know,
mentorship feels really, really

good when it when it's more
personal and more collaborative,

I guess than transactional. In
that sense.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: I don't
think that's naive at all. And,

and I think, I think I think it
may also be, in part at least a

product of the program that
you're in, right? That you're in

an intellectual space that is,
that is full of people who are,

who kind of like, navigate the
end and problematize the borders

between, right intellectual
work, activist work, organizing

work, and are always kind of
pushing back against the

constraints of disciplinary
formations, right. That's the

beauty of being in a kind of
interdisciplinary space in some

ways. And it's, you know,
someone like be who was in a

stuff fairly interdisciplinary,
but still very disciplined and

disciplinary graduate program in
communication. I found that kind

of life and those kinds of
relationships outside of those

spaces in in the kind of like,
more ethnic studies, types of

spaces at my university and
beyond my university as well.

Bryant Taylor: Yeah, I think
that's a really, really good

point. You know, I never thought
about like the, the differences

outside of my own, outside of my
own bubble, because it is still,

you know, a small program. So,
yeah, that that definitely makes

sense. A bit of it being
different. I guess it also goes

back to, you know, kind of being
picky about who you have as

advisors as well, because you do
have to spend a lot of time with

them, so it can feel like, you
know, yeah, I don't know, I

shouldn't say there.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: So, how
is it that you think you find a

good mentor, Brian, or offer
yourself up as one for others,

Shantel? Like, when do you do
those things? And how do you

make it work?

Bryant Taylor: Should we tell
our? Our origin story?,

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Obviously,
the answer is yes.

Shantel Martinez: Yes. I think
we should tell our origin story.

I think you tell it beautifully.
Bryant, go ahead.

Bryant Taylor: It was a cool
summer day in Monterey,

California. 2019, I believe was
the year and UROC was hosting

like this panel for you. UROC is
the Undergraduate Research

Opportunity Center at California
University, Monterey Bay. And

they were hosting like a panel
of faculty to talk about, you

know, the graduate school
experiences like how to navigate

graduate school, how to apply
for funding their research and

stuff. And so I come in, I'm
sitting there in the program was

have stem heavy, so there's a
lot of STEM faculty there. But

then, Dr. Shantel Martinez
introduces themselves and they

were talking about, you know,
how they were able to use their

research to go abroad, they were
talking about how they were

first gen. You know, they were
talking about all this

beautiful, wonderful things that
they were doing with their

research. I was like, Oh my
gosh, like, I need to talk to

her, like, ASAP. And so I forgot
if I went up to you after the

event, or if I like II sent you
an email after? I think you sent

me an email. Yes. Okay. So I
sent an email and was like, hey,

like, I really enjoyed your
talk. Like, is it possible for

us to meet at Starbucks, so I
can pick your brain asking more

questions. And Chantal, being
the wonderful person she is she

was like, Yeah, for sure. Oh, my
gosh, you know, thank you so

much. Ah, so we meet at
Starbucks. And, you know, I feel

like we just kind of instantly
clicked like, I was asking all

these questions about research
abroad. And then we started

like, talking about our lives
and like sharing our own

personal stories with each
other. And I don't, I don't

know, I felt like after that
moment, I was just like, she has

to be my mentor, like, like,
it's a perfect match. And three

years later, we've been happy
ever since.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Like, did
you like follow up and be like,

sending emails? Will you be my
mentor? Please? Do you formal

like that? Or did it just just
kind of like fall into the

Bryant Taylor: You know, in
terms of formality actually

roles?

didn't happen much later on? I
think maybe, like, in the middle

of fall last semester. And I was
like, hey, you know, I'm going

to switch mentors. What do you
want to be my mentor, please?

And she's like, absolutely. But
I think, you know, I think ever

since that moment, like she was
inviting me to, you know, the,

the the CCME barbecue, she was
picking on me, she was like

recommending things for me to
read. We would keep in contact

and still like talk about my
research and just talk about our

lives. And so I guess the
informal mentorship was already

happening right at that moment
of, you know, the Yurok oven at

Starbucks. But I guess to get
back to the question of, you

know, how do you find a good
mentor? I think you kind of have

to know what your values are and
what you want from a mentorship

relationship. And I think At
that time, I was really looking

for guidance on how to like,
make the most of my

undergraduate experience. And so
when, you know, Shantel was

speaking, it was kind of
aligning with all the things

that I hoped my, you know,
undergrad would be. And then of

course, when I sat down with
her, it felt like, oh, like,

She's family, you know, like,
she gets it, she understands

what it's like to be first gen
BIPOC, queer, like, all of these

things just kind of aligned. You
know, in a space that kind of, I

wasn't really finding that at
that time. And so, you know,

kind of going in knowing what
your values were, are, really

play a role into who you
attract? And you know, who you

keep an eye out for? For sure.

Shantel Martinez: Yeah. And I
think that's such an important

part. And I think You named her
so incredibly, beautifully

Bryant, of like, knowing what
your values are, because I think

that oftentimes, you know,
especially for academics, and

for students who are, you know,
high achieving her driven, we

don't actually stop and take
that deep critical reflection of

what is what are our values,
right, you know, it's just kind

of going from one step to the
next step to the next. And I

think really sitting down and
being like, you know, What

expectations do I have for a
mentor? You know, what, what

type of mentorship relationship?
Am I looking for, you know, what

are my values? Um, do they align
with this person? I think that's

really important. And I also
think that sometimes things just

happen organically, too, right?
You know, the thing that Brian,

like, doesn't share in this
beautiful, beautiful story is

that when we went to go to
Starbucks, he was fully prepared

with a notebook full of
questions, and a recorder, like

ready to go. And I was just
like, Who is this student, this

student was a better student
than I ever was in undergrad.

And he really like took my
breath away in such a great way.

And I was just like, I want to
work with this student, like, I

know, this student is on to
amazing things, and I want to be

able to be part of their story
and to get them to the next

place. And I think Funny enough,
I'm kind of like the name of

this podcast, that shadow
advisor, I've kind of really

have played that role all along
with Brian Eno, because he has

been accepted to, you know,
summer research opportunities

during the summer, where he had
a specific advisor for the

program. And then there I was in
the shadows being like, by the

way, you should be reading bell
hooks, by the way, you should be

also looking into this bridge
called my back, by the way, have

you checked out some indigenous
feminist theories, you know, But

I think that's, that's also the
beauty of it is that you don't

need to have just one mentor, or
one advisor, I think it's kind

of like a collect them all kind
of a situation, right? And that

one mentor can never be the end
all be all for everything in

your life. You know, I have
certain mentors that are

specifically for my career. And
I also have other mentors who

know me on a much more personal
level, right? And that's okay,

that's totally okay to have
multiple mentors in your life.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: So what
does healthy mentorship look

like? Both as a mentee and as a
mentor?

Shantel Martinez: That's a
really great question. And, for

me, I think it comes down to
trust, you know, that inner

circle of trust, right? almost
kind of like a Vegas rule. Like

what's said here stays here.
Because I think that it also can

really lends to spaces, again, a
vulnerability and empathy. I

know, that's something that
Brian and I really have in

common, both of our scholarship
and our work is about embodied

knowledge. And you know, that
the body serves as an archive,

you know, and so we both
research very, very similar

things. And so because of our
research topics, you know, there

are moments where I'm really,
really vulnerable with Brian,

whether it's in terms of my own
mental health, if I have to be

like, hey, you know, kiddo, I'm
really sorry. But I've had a

panic attack this morning. And I
actually can't meet with you

right now. I'm not in the mental
health space to do so. But can

we reschedule and having that
level of grace, because there's

been times to where Brian's
reached out to me and he's like,

I'm really overwhelmed with
school. Can Can you help me can

we reschedule? And it's, it's
never a judgment. It's like,

Yep, I got you. No worries,
let's do this. So I think it's

it really comes down to again,
the that level of trust,

vulnerability and empathy and
again, knowing that we're

walking this pathway together,
because I think it's really

important not to bamboozle our
students thinking that our lives

are the best and we never have
any problems and we're never

stressed and, you know, the
academy loves us and you know,

are tendering us left and right,
and that, you know, we don't get

in fights with other faculty
members, you know, all of those

things that never never happens,
right. Thank you. I am still

open with Brian about that
because I want him to know that

just because you have a PhD or
you're on the other side, it

isn't always rainbows, unicorns
and kittens. There still can be

trials and tribulations and and
again, I think that goes back to

this notion of options like are
these the trials and

tribulations you actually want
and want to experience in your

life and giving that person a
sense of agency and control over

those decisions? So that's what
I would kind of my little two

cents are on it. What's your
thoughts? Bryant?

Bryant Taylor: I completely 100%
agree to everything that you

just said. And I think another
component two is having a mentor

that listens to you. And vice
versa, because I feel like

again, mentorship can sometimes
be seen as being like this top

down thing or like your lemon
tea, and you have to, like, you

know, take in all this
information. But I think, you

know, the times that I have
shared with Chantel was just

very often pretty much every
single day. The feeling of being

heard really goes a long way in,
in, I think, establishing, you

know, trust, empathy.And, you
know, all the all the other

ingredients that make mentorship
go so well. Because I think,

yeah, as a mentee, it can be
kind of daunting when you're

like, oh, my gosh, this figures
has graciously graciously taken

me under their wing and is
providing you all this

knowledge. But, you know, being
heard, and I guess not

necessarily just heard, but
like, actively listened to.It

goes, it goes such a long way.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: That's
great. Yeah, I want to be

mindful of of our time. And I do
have a final question. That's

not about mentorship. But I do
want to ask you one, one last

question about mentorship. And
that is like, do you have it?

It's okay, if you don't, but but
I have a feeling you do? Do you

have like, like one big takeaway
about mentorship? Like, what's

the what's the key mentorship
takeaway for you? Either from

the perspective of like, of a
grad student, and that go for

both? Yes. And since Shantel,
you've you've been you were a

grad student at one point, or
as, as a, as someone, you know,

someone who engages in, in that
mentorship of others, which both

of you have to have experience
with as well. But like, what do

you think is like one big
takeaway that you'd want

listeners to have in mind, as
they start reflecting about

their own relationship to
mentorship in their lives and

their academic lives?

Shantel Martinez: So I totally
have something and this is about

this is something that Bryant
and I are actually co writing

right now is, find a mentor
who's also invested in joy, and

helping you to find your joy.
Because I think so often in

academia, you know, this becomes
our sole identity. And so, you

know, our self worth our
identity is really tied to our

levels of productivity, and what
are we doing and how many

accolades do we have and
whatnot. And I think that

something in terms of mentorship
is, again, remembering that

you're, you're mentoring the
whole person. And that whole

person includes joy, and
pleasure, and also having a life

and identity outside of
academia. And that's great. And

you should encourage that.
Because, again, you know, I have

learned through lots of years of
therapy, that academia is my

job, it's not my identity. And
so I've really had been

cultivating a space of
redefining what does Joy look

like in my life. And so now I
make it a point, when I mentor

my students of asking them, So
what brings you joy? You know,

what brings you joy, what brings
you pleasure, pleasure, what

makes you laugh, you know, that
deep, deep, deep belly laugh. So

that's what I would say is find
a mentor who's also invested in

helping to cultivate your joy.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Yeah, so
important. Bryant?

Bryant Taylor: Ditto, 100%, find
someone that encourages you to

find joy. And I think also too,
you know, for people trying to

find a mentor, it's definitely
important to be open, but also

be picky on who you let mentor
you. You know, just because not

everyone. Not every mentor is a
good fit or match. And, you

know, sometimes they'll be
looking for something different

than one person can provide. And
that's totally fine. It's

totally okay. Also to to switch
mentors and to try you know, you

know, meet different people. But
do not ever get stuck with

someone that, again, doesn't
encourage you just find joy,

but, you know, kind of makes you
miserable as well. Definitely do

not do that.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Yeah,
seems like that would that

wouldn't be a mentor, a really,
or at least not a good mentor

anymore, right?

Bryant Taylor: Yeah, definitely
not. No.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: If you're
using the language of being

stuck, probably not the most
positive experience. So my final

question for y'all. This is a
question I gave you in advance.

So I hope you have your three
things. So the question I want

to end interviews with is what
are your top three things that

you wish people had told you
going into grad school or while

in grad school? Top three things
number them please.

Shantel Martinez: Bryant. Do you
want to go first?

Bryant Taylor: Yeah. So my
number one is, when you're

deciding schools, make sure
you're factoring in like

activities that you like to do.
Because, yeah, like one of my

things was like, I really love
to play tennis. And so one of

the deciding factors was like,
which school has a club tennis

team that can be on for five
years? To get me through? Number

two is prepare.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: That's
important.

Bryant Taylor: It's really
important, right?

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: That it
is really important. Yeah, I

mean, it Yeah, of grad school is
not it's, it can't be all

consuming in that way. I mean,
it can be, but it's not

particularly healthy when it is.
So yeah, like having that

outlet. So key,

Bryant Taylor: Yeah. And it
saves you a lot of stress. Trust

me on that one, y'all. The
second one would be to prepare

kind of emotionally for you
know, different things that

might happen. Because again,
life happens throughout. So make

sure that you have you know,
your your backup plans, your

backup backup plans is to make
sure that if something does

happen, you have things to fall
on. So that way you can recover

and rest. And then also to the
third thing is actually to

factor in recovery and rest.
When you're making your

schedules for the quarter your
semester, whatever it is, I am

one who always forgets to do
that. And I am one that always

ends up crashing second week. So
don't be like me, make sure you

get in that recovery. Rest Time.

Shantel Martinez: I ditto all of
that. Yes, I Ditto, so much of

that. I think that, you know,
again, something was to take

care of your body take care of
your mind. So going back to that

notion of rest, and that it is
okay to give yourself permission

to take breaks. And it's not
always just to go Go, go, go go.

I think my second piece of
advice is maintain a life and

identity outside of the academy,
right? Like, make sure you have

other places that you can pull
from whether that's your family,

whether it's the surrounding
community of the university,

like make sure you have a life
outside of the university. I

worked at this really cool wine
store slash wine bar when I was

working when I was at Urbana
Champaign, and that was the best

thing ever, because it made me
have a life outside of it. And

the third thing is that always
prepare for the unexpected. You

never know the ways in which
you're going to grow. You never

know the ways in which you're
going to learn or unlearn things

and just be open to new
experiences.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: Awesome,
fantastic advice from both of

you. I wish people had told me
those things before going to

graduate school. One more time,
I really want to thank you all

for for joining me for this
conversation today. It's truly

been a joy to have you to learn
from you. And I hope that our

listeners and I hope I know that
our listeners will feel the same

way. So thank you. Thank you.
Thank you so much for being here

with me today.

Bryant Taylor: Yeah, thank you
so much for having us.

Shantel Martinez: Yes, thank you
so much.

Darrel Wanzer-Serrano: And for
the listeners thank you for

joining as well. I really value
each and every one of you and

hope that this show helps in one
way or another as you continue

your own paths navigating higher
education. Since I tried to keep

this show as listener driven as
possible. Please send me your

thoughts and questions, hit up
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